City Business Church

It is not by grace that one enters the kingdom of heaven, but by tithing. - Damazio 3:16

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Location: Washington DC, United States

Friday, January 20, 2006

Question

We've been dancing around this question for over a year now, so I'm just going to come out and ask it. Did Dick Iverson make a mistake in choosing Frank Damazio to pastor Bible Temple? FWIW, I think he did.

58 Comments:

Anonymous Locutus said...

I don't know if it was a mistake, but I know he was not happy with many of the ensuing changes. In one of your earliest posts I think Larry Asplund nailed it in one of his comments, the issue is a generational one. Pastor Frank's generation came out of the anti-establishment/hippy/Jesus-freak movements. They were destined to clash with church leadership over the direction of the church at some point. Now the next generation (20-35ish year olds?) has or is coming of age and we have different views and expectations of what the church should be doing. At some point our turn will come to be in leadership and our kids will say our church sucks and we don't know how to read the Bible. Bring it on whipper-snappers.

1/20/2006 06:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ask yourself this question. Is the church doing more for the "underprivledge" than it did before? Is the church reaching more of the lost? Is the church's outreach programs better today then it was back then? Is the church more diverse? Does it have more of a cross section of people that reflect the city than it did back then?

Jesus seemed to have focused alot on the poor. Most people back then were. It's the same today. Does the church follow that model?

Are we just focusing on the things we don't like? There will always be things like that. And if so, has anyone ever taken an inventory of the all the positive things that have been done? Whichever way you answer these questions, alot of that is Frank.

1/20/2006 07:46:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As someone who has a deep respect for Pastor Iverson. Yes, I do believe it was a mistake for Frank to succeed him. I don't beleive this is a generational issue. There are many church's with pastors in the same age bracket as Frank who are more effective at what a pastor is supposed to do. Though I don't attend and havent attended CBC in a very long time, and I don't like what I hear coming out of there. I hope in my heart that that church will rise up again and be a great church/safe-house for people. Frank has confused the church with the Ray Kroc method. Church's are to spread its outreach, not franchise. McCity-Bible?

McDonalds food got crappy when it franchised all over the world. I hope CBC does not make the same mistake with the message.

1/20/2006 08:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Recently a prominent former member of CBC told me this in regards to PF and his relationship with his church.

"The people think that Moses has come down from the mountain…they're afraid if they don't listen to every single word he says that they will be bitten by snakes."

Let’s hope Dick didn't make a mistake… for the sake of the people.

1/20/2006 08:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there a reason that Dick makes his home church City Harvest and not City Bible?

1/20/2006 09:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The LORD Almighty has sworn,
"Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will stand." Isaiah 14:24

Everything is as it should be.

1/20/2006 03:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Brian K said...

I don't belive that any mistake was made. The Leadership, Staff, and Congregation got exactly what they deserved.

1/20/2006 04:01:00 PM  
Blogger LMLab said...

I was at BT when Pastor Iverson was considering who to take over pastoring. Mark Bryan was considered. At the time rumors flew because being Iversons son-in-law favoritism would have been shown. I beleive he would have been an outstanding pastor! We are in the same age group and he has a tremendous sheperds heart. I believe he has what it would take to lead with vision and love.

Wendell did alot of kissing up to Pastor Iverson, especially from the pulpit. He really wanted to be at the helm. I truly believe he left to start his own church out of disappointment. He is doing well but I wonder how CBC would be doing if he were here. Wendell has a prophetic gift and was humble enough to listen to others.

Yes. I do believe Frank should have stayed in Eugene. His church was growing. He was pastoring in an anti-establishment/freak/hippy enviroment. Many were coming to know the saving grace and love of God. I think the power and prestige of pastoring CBC was more then he could turn down.

I remember a time when many were being saved. There was a zeal and enthusiam to know the Lord. Home fellowships were growing. At worship times you could see a silver viel over the entire sanctuary, especially when Mike Herron lead worship. The church was reaching out to the community.

After the change in leadership, I saw a recycling of Christians. People were church hoping looking to feel good and get a quick fix.

Ultimately, God's will, will be accomplished. There is a plan, purpose and destiny for CBC. God in His wisdom and love will bring it about.

My 2 Cents,
LMLab

1/20/2006 06:18:00 PM  
Anonymous OINVU4URAQT said...

It was absolutely a big mistake...It was like giving a candy store to a kid and expecting them not to eat any of it. I love Dick and Edie Iverson to death...I mourn the Bible Temple I lost.

1/20/2006 10:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cat,
Would you say you were completely full of shit or just 50% full of shit?

1/21/2006 08:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Locutus said...

This is slightly off-topic, but if you ever get the chance I highly recommend heading south on a Sunday to visit PF's old church in Eugene. Gary Clark, PF's replacement, is awesome.

1/21/2006 08:47:00 AM  
Blogger catalyst said...

I've actually heard there were a lot of people unhappy with Frank at his church in Eugene. But that doesn't matter now, I'm glad his replacement is doing well.

I love Brian K's comment the best. And I agree, they got what they deserved.

Lastly, you must know by now that I am 100% full of shit.

But it's a happy funny type of shit.

1/21/2006 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger anna said...

It reminds me of when Israel asked for a king. And they got one. And then look what happened.

If PF ever reads this and recognizes himself in the story of Saul, I hope he considers it and prays about it.

1/21/2006 11:50:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to say 50 but who can really say.

1/21/2006 01:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You people really don't like PF do you? How about Marc Estes? He's full of energy, insightful, thought provoking, and he knows is Bible.

1/21/2006 05:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To bad he chooses to ignore it.

1/21/2006 05:34:00 PM  
Blogger John Adams said...

I'm too young and too stupid to speculate on what Pastor Dick should have done. The question I'd rather have answered is, Does Dick Iverson think Dick Iverson made a mistake in choosing Pastor Frank as his successor?

1/21/2006 06:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

GOOD POINT!

1/21/2006 06:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've heard tell that Dick Iverson DOES regret his decision.

1/21/2006 06:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there anything that PF has done that he would be given an A? And if no, why do alot of people feel that he is not that good of leader? I don't know. I'm new to the church and I agree with some of the points that have been stated in previous discussions.

1/21/2006 06:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey here is a thought. Is PF more like JC in his behavior and decisions or more like a Pharisee in Jesus' time?

1/21/2006 06:33:00 PM  
Blogger lamthekiller said...

If he would have chosen another pastor, and if they still had the same leadership team there is now, would it really be any different?

It seems to me like he's not the only one who makes decisions... and that most things that go on there are not just his ideas.

1/22/2006 12:12:00 AM  
Blogger JiminyCricket81 said...

Me answering this question is a little strange (which is why I've waited to do it), because it's not just Frank I disagree with, but the whole ideological foundation of CBC. If Dick Iverson wanted to see things at "his" church go a certain way, he should've chosen someone whose ideals *and* personality were lined up with his own, and he should've chosen someone who was awed enough by him to be kept under his thumb until Dick died. So, in that sense, yes, he did make a mistake. He didn't choose someone who'd fall in line. And, in some ways, bully for him.

Now, if what he wanted was to choose a person who was trustworthy, unselfish, or possessing other positive qualities he had in mind...well, that's dicier. Frank knew him, and probably knew how to present himself, so who knows if anyone could've seen what he really was and what he was really going to do. The question is dicey because we a) don't know what criteria Iverson was using to choose and b) don't know what the selection process actually was. To my knowledge, there were no objective criteria worked into any of this....it was all based on how one person or small group of people felt.

People choose other people based on feelings all the time (we usually call it "dating"), so there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. I'm just thinking that, in a position where the "winner" stands to gain a 6-digit salary and the ideological reins to 3000 people, one might want to have some disinterested parties involved. But, that'd take de-centralization....one thing that BT/CBC has never been comfortable with. The power sits almost overwhelmingly in one person, and is influenced by only a very few other people. So, this is the kind of stuff that happens, and the little people just have to go along with it or leave.

I guess my bottom line is that it wasn't so much this particular decision that was or wasn't a mistake. It's the whole process by which decisions are made that has some serious flaws.

1/22/2006 02:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Henri The Fantastic said...

At the time, I think the decision was what Dick felt "led" to do, by God.

Did Samual regret "picking" Saul as king?

Once the decision is made, how can you say that Dick might "regret" his decision? Do you think Samual regretted his decision to listen to God?

Once that boat wheel was handed over to Frank, (I was there at the service!), Dick was out of the picture and Frank became "The Man".

From that point forward only Frank was in control over his own actions.

I don't think it's fair to say that Dick made a mistake, because at the time.. if he really did his research and truly felt God telling him that Frank was the next king... then his decision was good.

From that point forward, what Frank chose to do with that power is Frank's decision...

I hope that all makes sense. I think, *at the time the decision was made*, Dick made the right decision. I base my opinion 100% in my respect for Dick, as I do not know what prayer/fasting/word-of-God-spoken-to-him he went through. All I know is that I believe he is a man of God, and did what he felt was what God was telling/showing him to do.. at *that* time.

Let me end with this.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Now ask yourself what kind of power structure is in place at that church?

Is the leadership "team" at that church really much different then a CEO of [insert big company name here] having a "team meeting" with his sycophant VPs?

1/22/2006 04:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the first Anon, I truly hope that your questions were rhetorical or at least sarcastic, because the answers to all are NO.

"Is the church doing more for the "underprivledge" than it did before? Is the church reaching more of the lost? Is the church's outreach programs better today then it was back then? Is the church more diverse? Does it have more of a cross section of people that reflect the city than it did back then?

My guess is that Dick does regret his choice...but I agree with Jiminy that the core problems were in place long before Frank took the helm. Did you ever read any of Dick's books?! Listen to his sermons?! I'm not saying he's all bad or that Frank is because neither is. The individual pastor isn't the problem at CBC; the system is. The pastor there is a figure-head, like many others here have stated. CBC may not be part of a denomination, but if you think it doesn't base most of its decisions on the views of the wealthy there, and based on what the leaders believe will best their image, you are sadly mistaken. It's corrupt.

1/22/2006 05:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You guys are rough! I just can't win. But keep on keeping on! I apreciate the flip sided opinon. It makes me think. Hmm....... Something to marinate on.

ONE LOVE.

1/22/2006 07:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Therein lies the whole problem...top down kingdom mentality...rather than a more democratic, congregationally vested Jesus first mentality. When a king can do whatever he wants, (earthly king, that is), and his subjects blindly follow, greed and corruption are always thick in the power structure. Remember, the church is God's people, not the certain people who choose to be God's "anointed" ones.

1/22/2006 11:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To whomever posted this:

The LORD Almighty has sworn,
"Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will stand." Isaiah 14:24

Everything is as it should be.


I sure hope you are joking. Is the world perfect? Does God control every detail of every action?

1/23/2006 01:14:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Everything is not as it should be. But God does control every detail of every action. I would shudder to think that there were details and actions outside of His knowledge and permission. This just gets us into the talk about 2 wills of God, permisive and decreed, secret and hidden, ect. God "works all things after the council of His will." Eph. 1:11b

1/23/2006 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger JiminyCricket81 said...

most recent anonymous:

That's very pretty and neat....but, it's not an answer. It's pat, and it's a copout. You're essentially saying that if a decision is big enough and made by an important enough person who claimed to have been led by God, then that person's decision isn't subject to later evaluation. This is similar to the notion of papal bulls or the divine right of kings. The Magna Carta happened a long time ago, my friend....and since then, we all bear our own responsibility and we have to stand not only before God, but before other people for the decisions we make. The will of God is not in question here. The will of one person is.

1/23/2006 03:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

JC I was defending the soveriegnty of God and not Dick's choice of PF. My two cents is that Frank got bailed out of his pastorate in Eugene before his congregation got rid of him for using their funds for more and more expansion, to bad no one at CBC has the balls and or conviction to take a stand and say the emporer has no clothes on. Plurality of elders my ass, more like plurality of yes men, don't want to doubt your vision PF. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors but Frank having a helicopter to fly him between campuses is the only thing that I know of that has been shot down.

1/23/2006 04:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last anon--are you kidding about the helicopter?

1/23/2006 04:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not the last anon, but I was also there at that meeting in the PBC Chapel when he floated his idea of a Westside campus as well as the need to speak at both places. He didnt mention a simulcast but he siad he needed a helicopter to get him between places and he looked suprised when someone laughed nervously. Of course then we didn't know that he was going to invest in bigscreens. Ha-ha amazing arogence.

THE TRUTH

1/23/2006 05:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Locutus said...

Where can I get info on buying a franchise?

1/23/2006 08:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Anonymous-

You stated this following phrase but I hardly doubt you discovered this for youself.

"God does control every detail of every action. I would shudder to think that there were details and actions outside of His knowledge and permission."

How much indoctrination have you had?
Does it feel weird to be as ignorant as an islamic terrorist?

1/23/2006 08:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Locutus said...

Anonymous - how does it feel to be like school on Saturday? No class.

1/23/2006 09:07:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

www.luigicascioli.it

Google this if you want to know the truth according to historical facts.

1/23/2006 09:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this post is for any real christians who might be reading these posts. keep in mind that if your for God your against him and any slander towards the church(or Christs bride as the bible puts it)is is not what a real christian would do and so dont take any of the anti Frank Demazio or cbc comments as if they are coming from people who have Christ in their life. We as christans need to just pray for these people that they can come to know Christ

1/24/2006 01:34:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

not for God your against i mean

1/24/2006 01:44:00 AM  
Blogger catalyst said...

These last comments sound like something my father would write....

...if he were drunk.

I understand your point. It just helps if you use capital letters and punctuation.

1/24/2006 05:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Catalyst, you are too funny. "If he were drunk!", I just about fell over and spit out my coffee I ways laughing so much. That was classic.

ONE LOVE

1/24/2006 07:57:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:56 pm anon, What happens, pray tell, that is outside of God's knowledge and permission? This truth does not justify Hitlers actions or our own "little" sins. It is called the mystery of paradox and not letting our own feelings of how God should be trumph what the Bible says He is in His nature character and actions.

1/24/2006 09:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"It is called the mystery of paradox and not letting our own feelings of how God should be trumph what the Bible says He is in His nature character and actions."

Thee above remark makes about as much sense as the letters in my Cherios!

1/24/2006 02:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are no letters in cherios just little circles.

1/24/2006 04:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tasty little circles.

1/24/2006 07:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

alphabets yum...

1/25/2006 12:29:00 PM  
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Anonymous Ted said...

Bible Temple in the 70's and 80's was "The House of the Lord." It still is. Some of us were "addicted," to the perfect worship. The Universe, The Father of Lights, is not dependent on Bible Temple or City Bible Church. This is a good lesson that we don't trust in our spirituality, our church going, our religion, our doctrines, but we trust in the ONE who sits in the center of "Infinity." He is larger than the success or distress of this particular movement. Have we all learned a lesson? When we were at Bible Temple, I think that we were "blinded" by some of the intensity. There were things we shoved aside because of all the time we spent there and mild obsession; however, if we get too earthy, we lose our feverncy. We need to balance out, our feet on the ground and yet feverent. I do thank Brother Dick and Sister Edie for bringing so much light to us and showing us that we can have that much love, light, and power in our lives from The Father of Lights. I wish they would have taught us that while the Church is the Bride of Christ; others are His Children.

12/07/2007 06:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Our family came to Christ and to the then Bible Temple in 1989. I looked up to both Pastor Dick and Sister Edie and surrogate parents.

We were at the service where it was announced PF would take over. Surprised, we had assumed it would have been Wendell Smith although many at BT were qualified.

Whatever...we followed Pastor Bob over to Vancouver as part of church plant for CHC and we are very happy there. We admire Bob and Sue very much.

Just wanted to express the bittersweet feeling of Sister Edie's passing last Friday, Dec. 19, 2008. What a great lady! Heaven is blessed to have her.

12/25/2008 11:23:00 AM  
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Anonymous Anonymous said...

My wife goes to CBC and is a member. I have been a few times and honestly, I just couldn't take it. I had to walk out of the service because of the pride and arrogance the leadership demonstrated. In some ways I do feel like I lost her to the occult. I go to a different church that is small, the leadership humble, and one that asks the right questions about why we believe what we believe.

The reason I write this is that someone talked about slander against the church. If you know your church history, even Paul with Peter, false teaching and challenging it is very important and probably needed today more than ever (a lost art form in a way).

The problem is that once we broke away from what was the 'church' (never Luther's intention - not that I'm a big supporter either) and became all of these denominations, it was much harder to challenge false teaching because everyone has 'heard from God' on things and well... what more can I say about that? It's quite predictable.

Maybe I shouldn't be too surprised that Jesus and others said this would happen. False teaching is more rampant today than in the New Testament days. I do believe PF should be called out and his teachings. At best his own ego has led him down a deceptive path (that he is leading many others). But how would that happen? What authority does he answer do but God? Perhaps that's what the elders are for. As pointed out, even that can be stacked in his favor. Does anyone else feel that 'Frank' worship was everywhere masked in 'appreciation' for our pastor? There is no simple answer.

We are all the church and have Christ's authority, but we choose not to exercise it. Leadership has been left to the charismatic. The phrase, tickle the ears comes to mind, but again, that had to do with false teaching. A few years ago I almost gave into it myself, so I have some experience. It's pretty hard deny when people have 'prophetic' words for you about success and so on.

As far as the question stated goes... ultimately we make decisions that seem best at the time, but we are not omniscient. Frank, to someone, seemed like the best choice. Did be bend their ear, put his best forward, and so on? Perhaps. What I do know is that we will be accountable. I know that I don't have to stand and be accountable for what Frank has done (his teachings and so on), only myself, so that is what I concentrate on.

5/12/2010 10:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I find these comments about CBC and Frank Demazio very interesting.
I first came to the church when Dick Iverson was the pastor. I was going through a divorce at the time and I had never been to a church like BT before. I was raised in a Baptist church and my father was a pastor, so my church background was very different. Anyhow, I became addicted to Bible Temple, both to the teachings and the worship. I was even prophesied over after I joined. I don't attend CBC anymore, and in fact, I don't attend church anywhere. Maybe CBC burned me out, or maybe my own sins were too much for me to handle - I really thought I had found the truth, but now I'm not so sure.

I have no thoughts about Frank DeMazio. He had a very hard act to follow, so to speak. I don't know that anyone could have done any better. Besides, I'm in no position to judge. If I was a strong Christian, then maybe, but not now.

I wish the church well and hope that "all things work together for good." You see, I still remember some of the things I learned back then. I've never seen I church that was perfect, or a church that I agreed with 100%. If you believe that's where God wants you, then go for it. If not, then leave.

5/18/2010 12:00:00 AM  
Blogger GateKeeper said...

Hi Guys,

I am reading these posts that are years old and yet it is the very subject matter that has my full attention at the moment.

I came out of the 48 revival also, Richard Holland was a man like Dick Iverson a real heavy duty man of God. His church Waverly Christian Fellowship was later led by Kevin Connor and then Mark Connor, Franks brother in law?


As I see it, the 48 revival is essentially dead, it was only a cloud burst of what is to come anyway, the fulfilment of the Tabernacles feast or the Bride of Christ.

What is happening today, the spirit of Antichrist is behind the false church that says don't chase sin, people don't like it (it will reduce offerings) as our new best friend Joel says "if you are in church, then you are right with God and the more you give the closer you are"

It is crossless, it does not chase holiness and I have heard one chap say Sanctification is legalism. Another in Australia said their is no conviction of sin after salvation.

I have been blessed by David Wilkersons message on "another gospel" on the sermonindex site.

I think, the false church is here it has influenced most of the Pentecostal churchs, which is against holiness. At the same time there is another move which I believe is the beginning of Tabernacles proper, the feast of trumpets a call to come out (of her my people). This is a call to holiness and the death route to self. A very unpopular message for those who are driven by popularity.

I don't know PF however if he is anything like his brother in law in Australia, start fasting.

In the old days we spoke about the five fold ministry this is the only way that the church will grow to full maturity. Boss cock surrounded by sycophant city aint going to cut the mustard.

Many of you may not know the your church was founded on a truth as different as pentecostal teachings to a baptist. The reason I mention this is I am of the understanding that Frank is Pentecostal, for those who came out of the revival in 48 we never used the title but it is Tabernacles base as different as Passover to Pentecost.If you have a Pentecostal running a Tabernacles church it is like a baptist running a Pentecostal church.

Fortunately after hearing David Wilkerson you may also agree that the foundations are being rebuilt and the whore is being exposed. This crossless gospel is not brothers with a different take on the scripture but it is the enemy.

Salvation without repentance, don't know what you guys are hearing but it hell on a stick in Australia at the moment, no batter, in fact, no stick.

To finish on a positive note Christ will have a church without spot. We must not be moved by every wind of doctrine. Remember the 50 (Pentecost) sons of the prophets tried to stop Elisha getting the double portion by offering his a soft option. He left Jericho and headed into the desert with his master. I am not suggesting the desert is the answer however unless there is trial and tribulation of the flesh Godly character cannot be manifest.

Wishing you well and hope you also sense the winds of the spirit. Not sure where we go to from here but I think the lord is going to use and army like that at Adulams cave, the rats and mice, not the kings and the princes.

1/30/2012 11:40:00 AM  

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